Avoiding the Drop

World Soccer Daily hosts Steven Cohen and Kenny Hassan recently talked to Bill Simmons, ESPN’s own Sports Guy.  The chat was held on Friday July 10, and I’ve transcribed it for you below.  Simmons, who at one point wrote two columns about picking an EPL club to root for, mostly spoke about the article and his take on soccer in this country, but the chat was light, and it was easy to tell that he was enjoying himself.  The full podcast can be downloaded here, and also includes an interview with Jozy Altidore.

Steven Cohen:  This is a great pleasure for World Soccer Daily.  We are very very thrilled to bring to the show one of the great mainstream core American sportswriters, podcasters, et cetera.  From ESPN, Bill Simmons.  How are you Bill?

Bill Simmons:  I’m doing great, how are you guys?

SC:  We’re doing very well, and very honored to have you.  I just wanted to read a paragraph from an article he read, sorry, he wrote three years ago where he says: “You know how Red makes the comment that, after a life spent in Shawshank, he can’t even squeeze a drop of pee without asking for permission first? I feel like that’s happening to us. American sports have been ravaged by TV timeouts, ticket price hikes and Jumbotrons that pretty much order fans how to act. Just look at what happened in the NBA playoffs. Miami fans were urged to wear all white like a bunch of outpatients from a psych ward; the Detroit announcer screamed, “Let’s give it up!” and “Lemme HEAR YOU!” as the crowd responded like a bunch of trained seals; Clippers fans weren’t able to stand and cheer after an outrageous Shaun Livingston dunk in the Denver series because disco music was blaring at deafening levels.” [source, and it will be referenced a million times in this transcript]  And he goes on, and he goes on, and he goes on.  Now Bill, you are, and thank you very much for joining us, you are one of the only mainstream guys out there who regards soccer, or football as we call it, with any kind of gratitude.

BS:  Yes.

SC:  Tell us how.

BS:  That was a long question.  Um, I’m of the camp of, I like anything that is done at an elite level.  I think the difference with how soccer was approached in the past here in America versus how it’s approached now is that they’ve always been trying to sell “Well, it’s going to work here as an American league and people will come see it” and I don’t think Americans want to come see guys who aren’t the best and now you look at what’s happening in international soccer and the way that ESPN has been carrying more games [clears throat, excuses himself] and you look at the effect that HD has on watching a soccer game and seeing a nice green field and the wide screen and seeing plays develop and I really think soccer this next decade has a chance to take off here.  The other factor is that because ticket prices have gotten so expensive, and because it’s almost as fun to stay at home and watch sports on your big TV, I don’t think it really matters that you can’t go to see Manchester United, that they’re not playing and that they don’t come to your town twice a year.  It doesn’t really matter, you can just watch them on TV and I just think the cards are being set right now for international world-class soccer to take off in America.

Kenny Hassan:  Bill, let’s do this, let’s backtrack if we can.  Thanks for joining us, let’s backtrack if we can.  The most common question we get is from “newbies” is “How do I pick a team?  Do I just jump on the Manchester United bandwagon?”  We always tell them, “Look, slow down, a team will find you, there’s many ways that you can find a team.”  Explain how you found Spurs and we won’t hold that against you, trust me.

SC:  And how miserable has it been?

KH:  Explain what happened with Spurs and you.

BS:  Well, I wrote this 8000 word column trying to figure out which….I was like “Alright, I’m going to pick a Premier League team” and figure out exactly who is the right team for me.   I did a whole bunch of research, I spent a week learning about the different teams, looking at the jerseys, reading on their histories and Spurs seemed like the logical pick.  Now, fate intervened because I had a kid, my wife got pregnant again and had a second kid and I just didn’t have time to throw myself into it.  This is the summer that I’m going to throw myself into it.  Now, with a caveat, because I never really adopted Spurs yet, I’ve had this nagging feeling that Liverpool might, I just might have made a mistake and Liverpool might be my team because they’re kinda the closest to the Red Sox, and I’m going to give it a year.

SC:  Bill, Bill, Bill.  How are Liverpool closest to the Red Sox?

BS:  Well, you know, they have this storied history and a lot of failure and they spend a lot of money and they’re always in the mix but things don’t turn out right all the time for them.  It’s not like they’re a dynasty, they have a lot of heartbreak.  They got die-hard fans.

SC:  You know that they are the most successful club in English football, right?

BS:  Yeah, but how many titles have they won, though?

SC and KH:  Eighteen.

BS:  Eighteen, but how many recently though?

SC:  None

KH:  None, they haven’t won it for nineteen years.

SC:  But they’ve won five European cups.

BS:  Right, but they, I’m doing this off memory because I wrote that column three years ago, but isn’t there something like they had some sort of drought for a long time?

SC:  Yeah, they’re hopefully in the middle of it.

KH:  Bill, look Bill, you’ve already committed yourself to one part of London, you may as well stay in the neighborhood and move yourself over to the Arsenal, this is a team that play beautiful football, they’re fiscally responsible, this is a team that would be ideal for you to understand how the game is played.

SC:  And Bill, I have to say the one team that you actually got completely wrong in your article was Arsenal.

BS:  Why?

SC:  Because you equated them with the Red Sox and I think you made some comment, and I’m not knocking it, it was one of the great reads of all time, and I read it again last night, I think at the beginning you say about Arsenal “They just did what the Red Sox did by winning their first title” when they actually have been the only team over the last fifteen years who competed with Manchester United.

BS:  Right.  Well, we can’t argue that Manchester United are the Yankees, right?

SC:  Correct.

BS:  Okay, um.  There’s something that rubs me the wrong way with Arsenal and I don’t know what it is.

SC:  It’s Osama Bin Laden and John Gotti.

KH:  [Laughs]

BS:  Liverpool has an older stadium, right?

SC:  Right, they have Anfield.  Let’s go beyond just your pick of, and I love the way, this article was one of the great articles ever written from an American standpoint about the Premiership.  But let’s talk about the growth of the game here because when I heard you with Colin Cowherd the other day the clear issue that you guys were making, and we’ve been saying this for seven years, is the problem with football in America in terms of the MLS’s perspective is there’s just so much better product to watch on TV and if you take the premise that you’ve made that “It’s too expensive to go out, why don’t we watch it on TV, there is so much more on TV this a better product”.  But how much do you think the US Men’s National Team is important to the growth of the game?

BS:  It’s really important, and I think, you know you look at some of the big things that have happened, definitely the ’94 World Cup, definitely made a little run in ’02, and I think what happened in the Summer with the Confederation Cup at the same time, I think we all know.  You know, our best athletes all play football, baseball, basketball.  It’s just the way it is.  Our best athletes don’t play soccer and we’re never going to have the LeBron, Kobe, Michael Vick, we’re just never going to get those guys for soccer.  We’re always going to be at a disadvantage.  I think people accept that but I think what’s the really interesting that’s going to happen and this is where I think the Premier League will go is that if these teams were smart in the Premier League, they would have, they would play some games in America and try to attach themselves to cities.  So, for instance, let’s say, you know Arsenal’s already done this a few times, but let’s say Arsenal plays one home game in LA every year.  Then maybe the LA fans adopt Arsenal.  What if Manchester United plays two home games a year in New York, maybe the New York, maybe New York jumps on that bandwagon.

KH:  Bill, to be honest with you, Richard Scudamore of the English Premier League has a proposal in called “The 39th game” because it’s a 38 game season.  They have a proposal in where they take a game overseas but it’s getting a lot of backlash right now from the “purists” and the traditionalists that don’t want to see the game getting moved.

BS:  Yeah, but at the same time, I think all the soccer fans abroad have always had this little thing with you know, “Americans, they don’t get soccer, they don’t recognize how great some of these guys are” and they’re right because, you know, they don’t show soccer at the right times here, just only recently has ESPN started showing some of these great games and if you look at the ratings, the ratings have actually been really good.  It’s like the Confederation Cup when we lost to Brazil, they got like a 2.7, and I think I just know I like watching anything that’s good and when you watch what Brazil did to the Americans in the second half, if you like sports, I don’t see how you couldn’t appreciate that.

SC:  Bill, we’ve got to go to a break in about a minute and a half, is there any way we can keep you over the break because we want to talk to you about sport, patriotism and playing abroad, is that okay?

BS:  Let’s do it.

SC:  Alright, we’re talking to Bill Simmons from ESPN and he’s got the B.S. Report and I highly suggest you sort it out, it’s one of.  I think there’s a lot of rubbish out there and this is not one of them.

KH:  I’m not liking this change he might make in, towards Liverpool.  There’s no changing in football, you’ve picked Spurs…

SC:  He can’t do that.

BS:  I picked them but I never actually started following them.

KH:  It doesn’t matter, you’ve picked them.

SC:  And by the way, you did it in writing.  This is unacceptable and I think when we come back, we’re going to try to explain to you, why.  You wouldn’t go to the Yankees, would you?  You wouldn’t go to the Lions?  Although, some of the excuses he gave for not choosing some teams and we’ll read’em when we come back, absolutely brilliant.  We’re talking to Bill Simmons from ESPN on World Soccer Daily, don’t go anywhere.

[commerical break]

SC:  Alright, we’re back on World Soccer Daily.  [reads on-air commercial for a bottle of $6.99 wine]  Are you there Bill?

BS:  I’m here, and you know what we didn’t talk about was I’ve been getting a lot of feedback about maybe following the Premier League, I’m doing kind of like the triple A version.  Maybe I should go with the big boys and follow like, Barcelona or Real Madrid.  I don’t know how you guys reconcile that.

SC:  You know what, this is a point that we have been talking about a lot on our show, it’s like this is the Summer of neglect and rejection for the English Premier League but in real terms, not that there aren’t loads of big matches in Spain, but there are only really two enormous teams and one is just spending money like it’s going out of style.

KH:  Bill, I would recommend, if you’ve picked a team, I would recommend just like any other sport in the world, I would recommend staying with them, going through the emotional roller coaster that is a season, and then if you want to admire Real Madrid or Barcelona from a distance, I’m a Rangers fan but I certainly admire Arsenal football club, I certainly will admire Real Madrid this year.  But I only ever support one team, but I admire many.  I would recommend that to you.

BS:  I’m Premier League, I’m probably stickin’ with Spurs but…

SC:  You have to!

BS:  But Liverpool, they have great uniforms.  I love the uniforms.

SC:  Spurs will be fine for you, and here’s the other thing.  Go and check out on youtube a couple of clips of Harry Redknapp, manager of Tottenham Hotspur.  He’s also the uncle of Frank Lampard who plays for Chelsea.  He used to play for West Ham, and there’s one clip when he was manager at West Ham where a bloke in training kicks a ball meaning to go into the goal and Harry Redknapp is doing an interview way off the pitch and the ball hits him in the back of the head and go and see what he has to say.  But, we wanted to get into some other things.  Tell us your thoughts on relegation.  In the article you wrote three years ago, you were very high on it, you though it was very interesting and you equated it to “Can you imagine what would happen to the Clippers?”  Do you think it could ever work in American sport?

BS:  I love it.  I think it’s the coolest thing that would definitely work with American sports.  The problem is the players unions have so much power here that say you have a major league contract to play for the Pirates and they get relegated.  I think the unions here would just fight that and not want that to happen to the players where in soccer, or as you call it football, it’s kind of accepted that hey, this is what happens to you if your team isn’t good enough.  I don’t know if we’d ever be able to make the hump, make it over the hump here but I think it’s an awesome idea and it’s really good.

SC:  Yeah, no, it really is and then you’ve got of course, the teams that come up.  Now, I was looking at your article again last night and realizing just how much football in the Premiership has changed in the last three years.  Sheffield United, he writes about Sheffield United, “Ladies and gentlemen, your 2005 Atlanta Hawks.”  Watford, he writes, “They used to be owned by Elton John.  Not that there’s anything wrong with that.”  Charlton, he says, from a reader, “Do you like the Detroit Lions?” and one that I think you’ve gotten a little wrong here, although not then was Aston Villa.  You write, “By all accounts, they have the most miserable self-loathing fan base in the Premiership.  That’s what happens when you support a team that sounds like a Cadillac model”

KH:  They also had David O’Leary back then, didn’t they?

SC:  They did indeed.  But now, they’ve got an American owner, they’ve got Brad Friedel who you liked at Blackburn, he’s now their goal keeper and even the backup goalkeeper there is an American called Brad Guzan.  Now, if you were gonna leave Tottenham, can I suggest Aston Villa?

BS:  That’s an interesting one.  (KH:  Randy Lerner)  I remember taking a long look at Man City back in the day.  That’s not a good option for me?

SC:  That’s a fantastic option.

KH:  They are now the wealthiest club in the world.

SC:  They are the wealthiest club in the world and they keep throwing gazillions of dollars at people and no one wants to go because they’ve got no prestige.

BS:  You know what would be interesting would be if someone like Jozy Altidore signed with a Premier team.  I’d probably root for that team.  That’s the X factor that hasn’t happened yet where a really likeable American player, not a goalie, it’s hard to root for goalies (SC:  I agree with you) but if somebody like that went to Aston Villa or Man City or wherever, I could see jumpin’ on that bandwagon.

SC:  [plugs Altidore upcoming appearance on the show]

KH:  Alright, European Champions League, have you watched much of the European Champions League, do you follow that being an ESPN employee?

BS:  It’s on at weird times here is the problem.  I live on the West Coast so times are usually goofy but here’s the thing.  So the season starts on August 15th, right?  I’m throwing myself in from that point on.   I’m going to start watching.  I’m going to start reading up.  I’ll probably start writing about it.  I really hope the die-hard fans back in your neck of the woods are patient with me as I try to figure out all this stuff, I’m sure I’m going to write some things that people are like “I can’t believe he said that, he’s so stupid” but…

KH:  We’re not that far from you.  We’re on Sepulveda Boulevard.

SC:  Are you up in Hollywood?

BS:  Yeah, uh, I live in Los Angeles.

SC:  I live up in the Laurel Canyon area and by the way, you are welcome to come in here any time you like, we will give you the education of your lifetime and show you exactly what’s going on.

BS:  I would love that but isn’t it like 7AM our time?

KH:  No, it’s not.

SC:  Well, I mean, it is but there’s a game at 9, there’s a game….

KH:  Not Champions League.

SC:  Champions League is at a different time, that’s in the middle of the day.

BS:  Well, who are your teams?

SC:  My team is Chelsea.

KH:  My team is Rangers.

SC:  And by the way, Bill, Chelsea will be here in 9 days.  To play at the Rose Bowl.

BS:  I’ll investigate.  I’m not tied to that 2006 column and in fact, I’m willing to be bribed.  If one of these Premier League teams wants to adopt me, try to woo me over…

SC:  Bill, come to the game with us.

BS:  When is it?

SC:  It’s the night of the 21st of July at the Rose Bowl.  It’s Chelsea versus Inter Milan, the backstory there is that the manager of Inter Milan used to be the manager of Chelsea a couple years ago but got fired by that guy Roman Abromavich who you wrote very very correctly about in this article.

BS:  Interesting.  I will mull it over.  I wasn’t planning on jumping in til mid-August, now you have me pushing up to July.

SC:  This is pre-season.  They come here for pre-season.

BS:  I’m not doing pre-season games.

KH:  This is silly season.  We’ve got the drama of the transfer market, we’ve got the pre-season games all over the world, this is the madness that takes place before the season starts.

SC:  Your article was fantastic, Bill, but let us fill in the blanks for you because I think we can.  Before we let you go, your take on the Landon Donovan/David Beckham experiment.

BS:  I’m actually just reading that book and it’s very good, I’m like 50 pages in.

SC:  [plugs author of said book, Grant Wahl, who will be appearing next week on WSD]

BS:  Oh good.  I know the Beckham thing never totally made sense to me because it goes back to how simple Americans are about soccer.  Like if you’re going to pay that much money to import some sort of star over to get people excited, it can’t be somebody like Beckham who has this unique skill set that you really have to know soccer to appreciate.  If they had gotten some sort of striker who’s in his prime, who scores two, three goals a game or whatever, like I think that would have resonated here but the stuff that Beckham does, casual sports fans just can’t really see it.

SC:  And to be fair, he hasn’t done enough of it.

KH:  Leave him alone.  Bill, last question from me before we let you go.  Take us through what happened, and I know you and Colin Cowherd spoke about it, take us through when you watched the US go two-nothing up at halftime against quite frankly, probably the favorites for next year’s World Cup, certainly in the top two or three, and then watched them get absolutely hammered in the second half.  Take us through that.

BS:  [chuckles] Well, I know enough about soccer to know that the two goals we scored were a little flukey.  And, it looked like Brazil kinda thought that they had to show up, that all they had to do was show up and they were gonna win.  When they came out and scored that first goal in the second half about 10 seconds and you could see they were all “peed” off, I was like “Oh my God”.  They really could have scored 10 goals in the second half.  I’ve never seen soccer played like that where it was like watching a college team playing against a bunch of 7th graders.

SC:  And in fact Brazil did score another goal which was not given.

BS:  Yeah, I have to say I’m fascinated by Kaka.  Like the way he controls the game, actually reminds me of watching a great basketball player, like somebody like Steve Nash where he might not even score a goal but he can control everything that happens.  I thought he was magnificent.

SC:  By the way, just to correct you if I might.  That second goal by the United States is what we consider to be (KH: Classic counter attack) a classic, classic counter-attack goal.  There was nothing flukey about it.

BS:  Okay, good.

SC:  I mean, the first one you’re right, but the second one was a thing of utter art and beauty.  One last question Bill, before we let you go, and again, thank you so much for joining us.

BS:  My pleasure.

SC:  Where do you think, the one thing we were trying to get a grip of, or trying to get Americans to understand, and I don’t say that in a condescending way, is this:  We get to, every two years or four years, really get behind our national teams.

BS:  Yep.

SC:  Now, in America, the sports are reasonably insular.  Nobody really plays baseball, okay a couple countries, no one plays American football, and basketball is growing, yeah.  These competitions like the European championships or World Cup or Confederations Cup allow us to get, even if we’re Arsenal and Liverpool and Chelsea and Manchester United fans, we get to get behind one central national team.  I’m wondering, do you think that’s a concept, because this is a very very very patriotic country, that’s a concept we can sell in this country, right?

BS:  Yeah, except they tried it with baseball and nobody gave a crap.  I think for some reason, it just works best with soccer.  I really think that the reason is the crowds, and the way that, there’s something about soccer crowds, especially here in America where the crowds are just dying in every respect, you know, it’s like this, as you read in the beginning, it’s like people just waiting to be instructed on how to act.  Soccer crowds are singin’ songs, they’re just maniacs, and for some reason, those international competitions, that really translates.

SC:  Yeah.  Hey Bill, we are very very privileged to have had you on the show.   [BS agrees that this is the year he’s going to pick it up and agrees to talk to SC and KH again.

End interview.